Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast. We are helping men to rewire their brains and overcome the shame that often surrounds unwanted pornography use. I'm your host, colton Thomas, and you're listening to episode number 23. And today we're having a very special guest. You guys don't want to miss Clay Brown, and I'm really excited about this one. This episode is really important, guys.

Speaker 1: 0:25

Clay is about to be very vulnerable with you guys. He's about to share his life story, and he's a man who has wrestled with and come out the other side of multiple addictions, and so I am incredibly honored to be the one to get to ask him these questions. I don't think he's probably ever shared a story like this before, and Clay is someone who's in our Reclaim community and has not only shown incredible resilience himself, but he's helped a ton of other guys, including me, just as an inspiration, continually sharing things like scripture, continually leaving us messages of encouragement. But, above all else, what you're going to see in Clay's story is that he did not give up, and I know that if you're listening, he wants you to hear his story and say the same thing for yourself Do not give up in the midst or in the face of temptation and addiction.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Having that said, let's jump into the interview. All right, here today we have with us Clay Brown. Really excited to interview you today, clay, and you're a special guest to have on the show because you have journeyed through Reclaimed. So today we have another testimonial, so to speak, for you guys. But Clay, I think, is going to be able to provide far more than a testimonial just from this 10-week journey that he's taken with Reclaimed, but he's got a testimonial to share, really for his life, clay. Over time, as I've gotten to know him, he has shared a lot about different parts of his story where he's overcome a lot. So why don't you start, clay, just telling us a little bit about you and your current stage of life and introduce yourselves to us a little bit?

Speaker 2: 2:14

Sure, I'm 66 years old. I'll be 67 in July. I came to reclaim to you Colton last year. In fact, I've had a year this month, of freedom and it coincides with Reclaimed, and it's been a great blessing. I'm semi-retired, I have a family, three grandchildren, two daughters and two sons, and I currently work at a hardware store with some of my time and I also tutor, and I have tutored for probably off and on for the last 10 years.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Yeah, yeah, and you also spend quite a bit of your time now pouring into other men in our community, which I really admire about you. So, yeah, could you go back and tell us about some of your first run-ins with addiction and what that looked like in your life and what really helped you then to overcome it?

Speaker 2: 3:18

Yeah, you know, I was raised in a single parent home. My father left me, left us, when I was 10, I think, and so it was my mother. She was, you know, worked a lot of hours, struggled very hard. We were poor and to make ends meet and to raise me. So the first time I think I came across pornography was I was 12. And I know, working with the community of Reclaimed and some other programs I've been with I know that's a common theme, although tragically, it's getting younger. But at the age of 12, and it was just from things left around that I, you know, happened upon. It wasn't anything I pursued, but at that point in time it kind of opened up, awakened something in me and I didn't, unfortunately, have, you know, I didn't have a church, we were not raised, I was not raised in a Christian home. We never attended church, never had a Bible in the house. You know nothing like that. My father was gone from the time I was 12 until, oh gee, I actually I never did get to see him again. When I was in boot camp I found out, my grandparents sent me his address and he lives here and I started corresponding with him, but he passed away while I was in boot camp, so I never really did get to see him from that time, from the time I was 12. And so kind of had that perfect ingredients psychologically to lead me to an addictive behavior. And my father was an alcoholic and so my first addiction though I probably would say it was not as much pornography, although it was always there at the foundation, always there lurking about, I realized later, but was alcohol and drugs. So I got involved in drinking and I got involved in drugs, hallucinogenics and, uh, cocaine, just whatever you know, whatever was there.

Speaker 2: 5:29

Uh, I went to the Marine Corps. I think my mom she I was 17 when I went to, when I signed up and went to bootcamp, and I think my mom was hoping that I would get away from all the you know bad experiences at a friend who OD'd and when I'd when I was 17. So a few months later I went into boot camp, went to Parris Island, but it didn't, as we all know, with any addiction, it didn't just stay home and I took the bus somewhere else. So I still had the drugs and the alcohol and after being stationed in Camp Pendleton in California, I was introduced to all these peep shows that were around the base. And so now I had, and of course, all the drugs that were associated around the base. So now I had both partnering together in my addiction, and it was. I was every bit as much addicted to drugs and alcohol as I was to pornography.

Speaker 2: 6:28

I got arrested when I was in the service for sales and possession of PCP. I was facing at one time getting kicked out of the Marine Corps and then after that the civilian authorities had me facing two to 20 years sentence at Chino State Prison in California. So I was kind of stuck. My addictions did not just leave me alone. It wasn't a peaceful thing. Fortunately and I look back now I see too many times in my life, like we all do that God was looking after me, keeping me from just face planning and being done. But I was put on probation for the drug charge and I did end up getting my honorable discharge. I came out and moved back, ended up in Oklahoma City where I live now, and the alcohol was just eating me up by then. How old were you at this time? I was, let's say I was 17 when I went to boot camp. I was 20, 21, 22 years old.

Speaker 1: 7:32

Okay.

Speaker 2: 7:33

So and I had gotten to the point where I was. I mean, this wasn't just simply a fact that I'd get drunk once in a while or get too high and do silly things. I got to the point where I had nowhere to stay. I was couch hopping from a friend's apartment to friend's apartment. I would sneak into my aunt's apartment when she was at work and take a shower and grab a few bites to eat and then leave. So I was close to destitute at that point.

Speaker 2: 7:59

My mom, who was a devout Christian she had been praying for me, like all faithful mothers were. She had come to Christ right about the time I went to the service, not when I was growing up and under her in the house, but afterwards, and so she had prayed for me ever since and her prayers worked. I came to salvation. I came to Christ one night after stumbling in alcohol for the nth time and I, just on my knees in my apartment, I just said God, please save me. And I reached that low. I was 26. I've not had any drug or drink since, so that was 40 years ago had any drug or drink since.

Speaker 1: 8:48

So that was 40 years ago. Wow, clay, I don't think I knew that part of the story, exactly how that happened. So this is really I mean your life's really a testimony of prayer and someone praying for you and you getting to that place just saying like I'm done enough. But I think it's important for men to hear that you went through a lot of consequences before getting to that point and you suffered a lot of consequences before getting to that point and you suffered a lot. But the fact that that point did come and that someone prayed for you and you had that that night, that changed you, man. Praise god for that. That's and that's awesome. Yeah, don't tell me more about that, like the events that unfolded that night when that happened, when you prayed, and then what happened in the days following that. I just I believe you're more.

Speaker 2: 9:28

And I will add, I've always kind of looked back, think my name is appropriate because God has molded me into a useful vessel. But so, yeah, I was struggling, but things were working around. About that time my mom came to town my my aunt had called my mother, who was living in Florida, and says Clay is really in a bad place, you need to come out here if you can and do something. Because she didn't know what to do. And so my mom flew out and she was waiting for me when I came by to sneak in the apartment. For you know that one time, and she, she said, just stay here. And you know, she took me to eat and prayed with me and talked to me.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I had just had a DUI and I had my. My prize possession was a 1970 Mustang convertible and I had, I had just totaled it, it was on a Christmas party, I was drunk, I had just ripped it open like a can of beans into a guardrail and it was just gone, and so I was getting pretty low at that point. So she was praying for me and then she said why don't you come to church? And so there was a church across the street, so that Sunday me and her went to this church and she introduced me to everyone in the church and there was, I remember there was a young man who's about well, he's about my age. He's still around. I still see him all the time. Rodney was his name and he was had a similar experience and he was a new on fire Christian and he started coming to the bar. I, like a lot of people, ironically, I was working at a bar, as I was as an alcoholic Right, so I was a typical thing but he would come to the bar and he would talk to me and witness to me and and I liked him. You know, it wasn't something that was like, oh no, here comes the Christian. And he had a similar story. And so my mom on one hand, and then and then Rodney on the other, and God was working in me and and I wanted to be free, you know, but I was, I was enslaved to this particular sin. I just couldn't get over it.

Speaker 2: 11:38

And I remember the last day my mother had to fly back to Florida and she said something that really impacted me. She goes your father, you're just like your father, you're the drugs, the alcohol, and, of course, as a son, I watched alcohol destroy my father, and you know my son, my father, he was a brilliant man. He was a, he was an accountant he had. He went to law school, he was a lawyer, he was an up and coming executive for an oil company by the name of Wedgwood I don't even know if they're in existence anymore and he went from that point to just a drunk bum.

Speaker 2: 12:14

You know, I think when he passed away he was a salesman for a clothing store and so I saw it ruin him, and so when she likened me to my father and his state at the end, that really clicked. And so it was about two days later I went and got real drunk again, and that night I just got home and I was like I can't do this anymore and I actually was on the wagon for a while, and after she did that for a couple months, I think, I was starting to get everything back together. I was working I actually was working two jobs and then for about two months I got an apartment and I fell, and when I fell I fell hard.

Speaker 2: 12:59

And there was that night I I just was on my when I I told mentioned to you about, you know, being on my knees and hitting rock bottom, praying, and, god, that was the last drink I ever had.

Speaker 1: 13:13

So that's heartbreaking when she said that to you about your father, and yet at the same time it sounds like facing that truth that it hit you so hard that that really did something in you, and I think it's horrible that your father was an alcoholic and the way that he lived, and also that you were raised fatherless and I'm sure you really desired to know and to have a father. So all of that is just really unjust. It's not right. But at the same time, somehow God was able to use him to get you to see through your own struggle in a way.

Speaker 1: 13:52

And I just find that very redemptive. Yeah, would you agree.

Speaker 2: 13:57

Yeah, and you know it's. I've thought a lot about community, especially since joining Reclaimed, and that's something a reoccurring thought I have is that sometimes people they don't just need the soft shell approach. You know, and it takes discernment to know how to be loving to someone and say you know, it's not just about wanting to do good, and I'm a living testimony you can stay and wallow in a sin and for years and then be redeemed from that. But yeah, but sometimes it takes us being shook up and getting to that point and falling for the you know how many times you fall to really reach bottom.

Speaker 1: 14:41

Yeah, and it sounds like there was really two nights involved here. The first was when she told you that and then you went and got drunk and then that night, just a couple of days after, she told you that you were like I've had enough, and then you did good for a couple of months. Then, like you said, you fell hard again. But imagine if you would have given up after that time, right there when you fell hard that day. I'm really interested in that because I think there's a lot of guys who really get motivated and something like that happens to them and they've got this will to really just to quit to quit pornography and then a few months or six months later they might find themselves having that fall. I've actually heard that from guys like men, and when I did slip back, I fell hard and I think that happens a lot.

Speaker 1: 15:30

But what's really incredible about your story is you didn't let that fall that time suck you back into the black hole. You know what I mean. Like you said no, why was that the black hole? You know what I mean. Like you, you said no, why was that Clay? Like, why didn't?

Speaker 2: 15:50

why didn't you get down and stay down after that? You know well the difference between the first incident and the second one a month or two later was just I mean, I it's. It's hard to quantify it, but it's in a very rough way. Explanation, it's one I believe. I totally committed to God and before I had you know. It's like there's you look at Judas and he was sorrowful for his sin and hung himself. And then you look at Peter who was sorrowful for his rejecting Christ and spent his life as a model for us all. And to be honest, I don't know if I can, if I have the magic explanation for what separates those two things. But there is in 2 Corinthians, I think it's chapter six. It talks about godly repentance or godly sorrow and the worldly sorrow. So I think I showed both of those. And it also says to me that you can play the Judas card for a time and still the grace of God is still beyond measure. So I guess what I'm saying is, if I had a message to someone listening you can't give up, you can't think, oh, I've stumbled so many times. Therefore, I'm just, I'm not going to, I'm not going to make it, I'm not going to make this.

Speaker 2: 17:09

Through this, through this struggle, you can be that that struggle and struggle and stuck and stuck. I mean my, my addiction to sexual sin. My struggle with it has lasted. I mean I was 26 years old when I at that, that night when I came to Christ, and I was 65 and I still have. Every day I have to be on my alert. I have to make sure that I am, I'm not leaving myself in a careless position. I cannot take this casually. I don't believe any Christian can live any day of their life casually without being on, you know, alert, whether they have an addictive behavior or not. So I would say you know that's 40, 39 years that I struggled with pornography. After I had been so victorious with with alcohol, I still struggled with my other great enemy, if you will.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:07

And sexual sin.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Yeah. So I would like to pivot our conversation towards that too and just first of all ask what did make it drag out for so many years in terms of like you feeling like you weren't able to make much progress for all that time. What do you think contributes to that versus like, for example, alcohol? That would be my first question, and then my next would be what made you want to get into Reclaimed? How did you find Reclaimed and how did you find me, and what was going through your mind at that time?

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah, I mean I was an on-fire born-again Christian. I mean when I was 26, when that occurred and I had this huge gorilla just removed from my shoulders with alcohol, and that same young man that would come to the bar and witness to me. I ended up going to his church and he discipled me. Witness to me. I ended up going to his church and he discipled me. We would go in downtown Oklahoma City and get into do street preaching and we would go door to door.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I was very active with a youth group at the church, so, and this went on for years, but I did not see the importance of guarding myself and so when temptations would come from this other, I still had. This, and that was a big part of my testimony was I've been sober for so long. You know, I've been sober for this many years and this many years to the point where it's almost like I let my guard down. It seems to me that's what happened, and I don't want to say that the church didn't prepare me. I didn't know anything about Scripture and the church probably didn't. Maybe they're raising a different time my elders, when it was understood, but from my perspective, I just never had that sense of urgency that every day, like I do now every day, to guard myself, to immerse myself in the scriptures and in prayer and back in those days it might have been, you know, don't go to a bar or don't hang out at a house where there's going to be drugs or alcohol, as opposed to now it would be. Don't be alone with my devices.

Speaker 2: 20:28

My wife is my accountability partner and we've been married for almost 30 years now and she's wonderful. As far as I can, you know, I know when she's going to go to bed before I do, and we're both semi. She's retired completely. I'm semi retired. I will give her my phone and my iPad and I will say here, take these with you.

Speaker 2: 20:49

Even though I feel comfortable and I think that's because of the lesson I learned, because I've reflected on this the question you asked why did it? Why did this drag out so hard so long? Why did this drag out so hard so long and alcohol did not? I do think, from my perspective, and probably because I did struggle so much longer with sexual inappropriate behavior, is that it does take willpower, great willpower for drugs and alcohol, but it's one of those things you don't have. It's not like having an iPhone nowadays where you have a bottle in your back pocket, you know you don't have a half pint in your sock, you know everywhere you go. So there is a dynamic there that is different and I think makes it more. You know, satan could not have come up with a greater device in context of the world we live in today than the iPhone. I don't believe.

Speaker 1: 21:37

No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And so that brings up a topic that I think is important to discuss. That comes from your story and how you've handled things, Clay, because there are some ways that you've handled things in regards to pornography and, you know, keeping that out of your life that I think is important for us to acknowledge and examine so that others can benefit, because some of the ways that you've gone about things are a little bit unique and a little bit different than how I counsel most guys, For example. Generally in general I do not coach or counsel men to involve their wives as their accountability partner, because most of the time there's a pre-existing hurt and mistrust there already that it's going to magnify and make things worse, right. But in your case, you have a relationship and a history with your wife such that you knew you could do that and it could be healthy and you could incorporate that into your plan for recovery. So you did that and it's actually been working really well for you and I haven't heard you report anything really negative that it's created between you and your wife, and so I think what I want to encourage men to think about here is that you saw the resources you had.

Speaker 1: 22:51

And another thing that I love is I wonder if this comes from like this way of your thinking comes from the years you struggled with alcohol and overcame it, just that you would physically hand over your devices at certain times for her to sort of guard and keep.

Speaker 1: 23:06

I think that metaphorically takes that bottle of alcohol that you were just saying is in the back pocket and you put it away from you just like you could with alcohol, right, but with pornography, so often we get caught up in this game of trying to block things and filter things with apps, but it's still right there in our pockets and it's still the means through which we get that fix. And so I love how you have kind of removed your actual phone physically from your environment at times in order to stay on track, and that's really been working well for you. So again, guys, if you're listening, just be willing to take steps like that. And, man Clay, I think there's so much humility too in being willing to guard yourself to the degree that you do and to take it seriously enough that you would be willing to hand those devices over and live your life to a certain extent without needing them all the time. Could you speak more into that Sure?

Speaker 2: 24:01

Now, a lot of it has to do also with part of the context of my life and I've been married three times Now. My first two wives, the first one and we were both druggies and alcoholics and our marriage lasted a year to the day, almost counting the divorce and everything. We got an annulment. We didn't have any children, thank goodness, and so that was the first marriage. The second one was my son's mother and we were both in the church.

Speaker 2: 24:33

I had just been there a few months when we met and she came also from a position of prior drug and alcohol abuse, and then we were married nine years and she left and got back into drugs and the drug scene. And so my third wife, the current wife, her and I are still together. We've been married almost 30 years now and because of the previous two and because I was older, I had a few go-arounds, I guess I told her when we were dating. I told her that I had this problem and so that context kind of led into that, Whereas maybe a lot of the people then reclaimed who would, or just listening now may not have that context and, like you said, it may not be a good idea. It just kind of fit the circumstance for me to go ahead and be up front like that during the dating process.

Speaker 1: 25:26

Yeah, that's really good, that openness and honesty from the very beginning, and there's a lot of guys who haven't had that, and so that's partly why Reclaimed exists and we've built the community aspect into the program so that men's wives are not their only option or their first option. You know they have other options, other men that they can go through this with is the importance of reclaimed in the community there. But, yes, yeah, I'm glad you said something about that. So, yeah, talk to us about some of the strategies that have worked the most for you, clay, and how those ideas came about. Like, what's your thought process? You know, like you said, you've been clean or haven't looked at porn for a year, so walk us through.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Yes, yes, well, one thing I think one of the most powerful things is community, and really it has to be centered on God.

Speaker 2: 26:19

So we have to live a, pursue righteousness because of our love for God and our understanding of what he's done for us, our salvation, and the power that comes from God. But community also allows us to relate and, you know, in a way that God made us or made for community, and so the whole aspect of being accountable and being open and to being able to share and to share consistently, you know, I think that is probably one of the single most powerful things that we all have, you know, at Reclaimed, we have a weekly meeting that we can Zoom, that we can go to, you know, and when I go to a lot of the weekly meetings that we have, and even if I'm not speaking, I go to a lot of the weekly meetings that we have, and even if I'm not speaking, just to be there and to listen to someone else, it is really, it really is encouraging If I don't say a word and just hear someone else.

Speaker 1: 27:27

It's just that that glue that comes from community is very powerful, is very powerful.

Speaker 1: 27:31

Yeah, I'll just say really quick you know, if you are not actively engaging in discussions about this with other men and not just being able to share about what you're going through with other men which is extremely important to have a safe context you can do that in. But even apart from that, just if you are not in a situation where you are able to listen and hear other men talk about their journey whether they're struggling or they're overcoming either one just to be able to sit in the presence of men and hear them share about it as well, that's all just so healing. Like if you're struggling with pornography and you're just not where you want to be, you need those things, and I think that's the way that God designed that to be. You know what I mean. He designed us for community, he designed us to heal in relationships, and so I just want to say that, guys, you've got to find that, and would love for you to find it here at Reclaim, but you've got to find that somewhere somehow.

Speaker 2: 28:24

The other thing that I would say is I am routine oriented and every morning I'd have a read the Bible through the year program I follow, and then I have a prayer list. I have a prayer, I use my notes app on my phone and then I also have a little leather bound pocket journals that I transfer all my notes back and forth from my phone in case I'm at night or I'm somewhere I don't want to be around my phone and I give it to my wife or something else. I have that. So I, every day I try to read my scripture and then pray, and I'm always careful to not just do it ritualistically but to do it for the purpose of drawing close to God, and so that daily walk with God through the Word of God and through prayer is another one of the big key points for me in maintaining my walk.

Speaker 1: 29:22

That's so good and that reminds me Clay. I was listening the other day to like a motivational speech video with music in the background, while I was like running or working out. You know what I mean. Sometimes I'm lacking motivation, so I turn one of those on and try to pump myself up, and one of the things that they were saying is the grind isn't what's happening when the lights come on in the stadium and you're going out to play on the field. You know the grind is in the dark. When you're getting up when no one's watching field. You know the grind is in the dark when you're getting up when no one's watching. Right, you know that's where champions are made.

Speaker 1: 29:53

And I think about the struggle with pornography and I just think about you just doing your daily devotion, your worship, your Bible study. That's the kind of thing that makes porn free men, that makes men who are living lives where porn doesn't have power over them right, where the temptation of porn has been weakened to the point where it's more than manageable and it's not a daily fear that you live in going back to it or looking at it. So it's just. That's not to say that you never are tempted at all. It's just to say that when you're living your life that way and I've heard you say that several times like man, I'm really taking my devotion to God seriously, that that's helped you, and I've no doubt that that's been a huge part of it.

Speaker 2: 30:42

So thank you for sharing that, this failing over and over for so long that there does come a point where you know, just like I reached rock bottom in drinking and alcohol, I reached rock bottom right before I came to you.

Speaker 1: 31:00

You just kind of realize that there's no other way than to lean on God and, to you know, courageously, take another step forward into this, lean into this, not just being content with where you were Right. And so, as we were talking about this, you mentioned a time in your life where you did kind of lean into your fear and do something you were afraid of, and I think it's a neat story to share, so you should tell us a little bit more about that. You know what I'm talking about, right?

Speaker 2: 31:27

Yes, yes, there's a university just down the street from us and I got a job working there in maintenance. How old were you at this time? I was in my mid fifties, I was 50, let's see 55. I just retired from the post office and I had worked there for 30 years and I had like little bouts. I was a great underachiever in college. I would go to university for a year or two and then never finish and never accomplishing in much, just spot hit and miss. I went to work in the maintenance department and I was told that after I had been there for three years I got free tuition. So I was 58 by the time I actually started and I ended up getting my degree. I double majored in mathematics and physics. I also minored in biblical languages. Easy, you picked the easiest Well.

Speaker 2: 32:23

I told people because I waited so long. I wanted to get the best, biggest bang for my buck. Wow, man, and I was. I was challenging myself. I wanted to do something that was significant. So I did, and I ended up tutoring for the physics department at SNU for three years. I graded papers and not the usual things you do, and I tutor now a little bit. I think my board there is kind of blurry.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Oh yeah, I can see you in the background. That was not. Yeah, yeah, some equations up there, yeah. So we were talking about this, clay, and you were talking about how you would show up. You were the janitor at the college and you would show up to your physics class in your janitorial garb.

Speaker 2: 33:10

My blue S&U maintenance department shirt and my blue jeans and my boots and my work hat and I had a backpack. And I walked in that first day in my Calculus 1 class and all the kids turned around and looked at me and I think they were expecting me to fix the projector or something. And then, yeah, and then Miss Dr Professor Turner, he said, you know, clay, how you doing, glad to have you here, and this is. And he introduced you know. And then, as time went on, I remember when I graduated I just felt awkward for some reason going to the graduation.

Speaker 2: 33:47

But what I did the previous three years I would work security for the graduation ceremony. So I was standing outside helping direct traffic and park. But it was my graduation day. I just, I think just being older, I don't know, I just it just bothered me to draw that attention. But they would come, they were coming out, all my fellow math and physics majors were coming out and they were coming out. All my fellow math and physics majors were coming out and they were they'd all like, circled around me and we were all laughing and joking. So we went from the culture shock moment in first day of calculus one to graduation and it was a. It was a good experience. It was, it was very gratifying.

Speaker 1: 34:27

Well, we got to throw you a proper graduation ceremony. We'll throw you one in reclaimed. You will forever in reclaimed, be known as the superhero disguised as the janitor. That's what I think about. You're just casually mopping the floors, but you're, like this, super bright, know super bright calculus and physics mastermind. I just think that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 34:52

I think that's just a testimony to Clay. You know you were able to accomplish that, but you were able to accomplish your goals with Reclaimed and quitting pornography, and I know God has used you for those things. He's going to use you for much more. And so, guys, if you are listening, come join our community and you're going to be able to see and hear from, and maybe even get tutored a little bit by, clay by a physics and mathematics major, but also someone who is well versed in life and with addiction as well. And so thank you so much, clay, for being so open and honest and vulnerable about your story today. What else, if anything, would you like to leave us with, or men listening in regards to everything they've heard today and your story?

Speaker 2: 35:39

Yes, don't ever give up, no matter how many times you stumble or fall, don't ever, ever, ever give up. Take it from an old man, an old addict, who struggled for 40 years as a Christian in pornography. And I never gave up and the grace of God is more powerful than anything we can imagine and there is no time limit. On on our struggles.

Speaker 1: 36:07

Amen, amen. Well, thanks so much for doing the interview today and being with us, clay. Maybe sometime we'll follow up and have you on again, because this was just a really inspiring discussion and you know there's so many parts of your story, even today, that I hadn't heard before, but I really saw God's redemptive hand in it all and lots of hope and encouragement for men who are struggling, just to not give up. Don't ever give up, guys, take care. See you next time.

Speaker 2: 36:34

God bless.

Speaker 1: 36:38

What a great interview with Clay. Several things come to mind just to wrap this up. One is just Clay's humility just to have gone through so much in his life but to get to a point later where he is not giving up on himself or improving himself to the point of tackling a really difficult degree. And I think for a lot of people it would be tempting to look back at all the mistakes and the years spent in addiction and really dwell on that or dwell on what was lost. And I don't see that at all in Clay. I see a renewed man, I see a man filled with hope from the gospel and from his faith, and I think that's really evident in this interview and it just really encourages me. So I'm really glad you guys got to be in on that conversation.

Speaker 1: 37:25

I think the actionable step or the takeaway from this episode really speaks for itself and that is to not give up, to look at Clay and his life story, and there are many others who later in life are choosing not to give up and continue working on themselves and fighting addiction, fighting pornography, and I just think that that's the takeaway. Guys, if you're feeling discouraged, it's not too late for you, right? And the other thing that I wanted to mention is that Clay kept saying that he was the maintenance man, but I got it stuck in my head during the interview that he was the janitor. So sorry about that, clay, but in my mind I think either way the story is just as impactful and it doesn't really make a difference. But I just realized that as I was editing I did not use very good listening skills. That's all we've got for today. Thanks so much, guys, for listening to the Reclaimed and Unashamed podcast. Have a wonderful blessed day and stay tuned for the next episode. See you later.